Are you aware that Talbott's book "The Saturn Myth" was first published many years ago?
Since 1979, he has developed his hypothesis much further - in collaboration with Ev Cochrane and others.
There are various excellent videos on YouTube in which Talbott and friends present the evidence regarding the ancient polar configuration. Perhaps the best overview of their present understanding is the one entitled "Symbols of an Alien Sky."
Hi Rob. Yes, I've been following the Saturnists all along. I have several online books at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/lens-books. Have you seen any of them? Number's 2-6 cover catastrophism. #6 includes links to many of their videos etc. The reason I made the post about Talbott's book from about 1980 is that Ev Cochrane has told me lately that there is very little strong evidence that Saturn played a part in ancient myths. So I thought it would be good to review the Saturnist literature and see what was likely meant in ancient myths that the Saturnists previously identified with Saturn. It seems that Ev considers most of the referents to be to Mars, with Venus behind it, instead of to Saturn. Referents to the crescent may have indicated Saturn behind Mars and Venus. Ev said he has tried to find stronger evidence that Saturn was part of the polar configuration, but he hasn't yet found it. So a lot of the Saturnist literature needs to be updated.
I was under the impression that David and Ev were in general agreement regarding all of that.
However, I believe that Ev has the greater knowledge regarding the roles of Venus and Mars in worldwide cultural beliefs.
Of course, the problem is that (in our day) we cannot be certain about the exact details of the proposed polar configuration. And my understanding is that many mainstream archaeologists, cosmologists, and the like, are deeply opposed to the whole idea. Realistically, then, we will have to wait for a future time of divine revelation regarding the full picture of ancient false religions.
I think Ev said Shamash was from 1,000 BC or a little earlier, so that's too late to be significant for his theory. He and Dave and Dwardu figured that the polar configuration broke up before the beginning of civilization, since civilization was apparently an attempt to bring back the gods.
As I mentioned above, I think that we cannot be certain about the exact details of the proposed polar configuration. However, similar depictions of it in ancient art from Mesopotamia to North America point to it having been in existence during what is generally viewed as a fairly early period of human history.
In a similar way - the timing and manner of its break up seems to be open to conjecture. But, some artistic and cultural evidence suggests that its gradual dissolution took place during relatively recent human history.
In particular, the varying imagery of the Master / Mistress of Animals* icon seems to be based on a later stage of the configuration.
I'm far from sure about all of this, but the worldwide Squatter Man rock art images could perhaps have been depictions of a Peratt Instability Column that formed below the polar configuration. And, over quite some time, this phenomenon morphed into a constantly changing display that was characterised by a strong central feature with two symmetrical aspects flanking it.
Humans in various parts of the world recorded this celestial wonder, often presenting its features as recognisable entities such as a human with attendant animals. I believe that these renderings are classic examples of pareidolia.
However, a fairly recent discovery of this specific type of icon was discovered in India, and its true amorphous form appears to have been captured in a remarkable way by the ancient artist.
Here's a link to an article in which it appears:
BBC News - Prehistoric art hints at lost civilisation
* An online search shows that these designs can be found in a seemingly endless number of variations, from many artistic traditions. They are also referred to as Potnia Theron (Greek), and by one particular researcher as the God Self Icon. Here's a link that shows various examples of these enigmatic images:
I haven't read "The Missing Link" book. I just included it as an example that shows a few versions of the Master / Mistress of Animals icon.
I've got composite images in which there are dozens of these Potnia Theron icons - from all over the ancient world.
But, I don't know how to include them as an attachment here.
There's a guy on YouTube who seems to be especially interested in this subject and he has lots of short videos about it.
His videos show countless visual examples, along with related references from historical texts. I don't agree with all of his views and conclusions, but his channel is well worth looking at for the factual information.
Hi
Are you aware that Talbott's book "The Saturn Myth" was first published many years ago?
Since 1979, he has developed his hypothesis much further - in collaboration with Ev Cochrane and others.
There are various excellent videos on YouTube in which Talbott and friends present the evidence regarding the ancient polar configuration. Perhaps the best overview of their present understanding is the one entitled "Symbols of an Alien Sky."
Here's the link:
https://youtu.be/t7EAlTcZFwY
Rob Lyon
Hi Rob. Yes, I've been following the Saturnists all along. I have several online books at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/lens-books. Have you seen any of them? Number's 2-6 cover catastrophism. #6 includes links to many of their videos etc. The reason I made the post about Talbott's book from about 1980 is that Ev Cochrane has told me lately that there is very little strong evidence that Saturn played a part in ancient myths. So I thought it would be good to review the Saturnist literature and see what was likely meant in ancient myths that the Saturnists previously identified with Saturn. It seems that Ev considers most of the referents to be to Mars, with Venus behind it, instead of to Saturn. Referents to the crescent may have indicated Saturn behind Mars and Venus. Ev said he has tried to find stronger evidence that Saturn was part of the polar configuration, but he hasn't yet found it. So a lot of the Saturnist literature needs to be updated.
Hi Len
Thanks for replying so quickly.
I wasn't aware of your publications, etc, until today. I'll look into all that at some point.
I'm no expert, but my understanding is that Saturn played an important role in the proposed polar configuration.
There's a lot of visual and cultural evidence that the ancients viewed Saturn as a prime deity.
And many of the physical artefacts seem to show Saturn in a grouping that includes two other planets - most likely Venus and Mars.
For example:
M0006294: Tablet of Shamash, Mesopotamian sun god - as shown here:
https://wellcomecollection.org/works/vnvub9se/items
I was under the impression that David and Ev were in general agreement regarding all of that.
However, I believe that Ev has the greater knowledge regarding the roles of Venus and Mars in worldwide cultural beliefs.
Of course, the problem is that (in our day) we cannot be certain about the exact details of the proposed polar configuration. And my understanding is that many mainstream archaeologists, cosmologists, and the like, are deeply opposed to the whole idea. Realistically, then, we will have to wait for a future time of divine revelation regarding the full picture of ancient false religions.
I think Ev said Shamash was from 1,000 BC or a little earlier, so that's too late to be significant for his theory. He and Dave and Dwardu figured that the polar configuration broke up before the beginning of civilization, since civilization was apparently an attempt to bring back the gods.
Hi Len
As I mentioned above, I think that we cannot be certain about the exact details of the proposed polar configuration. However, similar depictions of it in ancient art from Mesopotamia to North America point to it having been in existence during what is generally viewed as a fairly early period of human history.
In a similar way - the timing and manner of its break up seems to be open to conjecture. But, some artistic and cultural evidence suggests that its gradual dissolution took place during relatively recent human history.
In particular, the varying imagery of the Master / Mistress of Animals* icon seems to be based on a later stage of the configuration.
I'm far from sure about all of this, but the worldwide Squatter Man rock art images could perhaps have been depictions of a Peratt Instability Column that formed below the polar configuration. And, over quite some time, this phenomenon morphed into a constantly changing display that was characterised by a strong central feature with two symmetrical aspects flanking it.
Humans in various parts of the world recorded this celestial wonder, often presenting its features as recognisable entities such as a human with attendant animals. I believe that these renderings are classic examples of pareidolia.
However, a fairly recent discovery of this specific type of icon was discovered in India, and its true amorphous form appears to have been captured in a remarkable way by the ancient artist.
Here's a link to an article in which it appears:
BBC News - Prehistoric art hints at lost civilisation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45559300
* An online search shows that these designs can be found in a seemingly endless number of variations, from many artistic traditions. They are also referred to as Potnia Theron (Greek), and by one particular researcher as the God Self Icon. Here's a link that shows various examples of these enigmatic images:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Missing-Link-Powerful-Prehistoric-Antiquity-ebook/dp/B01GD3UGZG?dplnkId=ba4f39f7-8137-47a6-9132-36f1a51c4873
Thanks for the links, Rob. I'm checking them out.
Hi Len
I haven't read "The Missing Link" book. I just included it as an example that shows a few versions of the Master / Mistress of Animals icon.
I've got composite images in which there are dozens of these Potnia Theron icons - from all over the ancient world.
But, I don't know how to include them as an attachment here.
There's a guy on YouTube who seems to be especially interested in this subject and he has lots of short videos about it.
His videos show countless visual examples, along with related references from historical texts. I don't agree with all of his views and conclusions, but his channel is well worth looking at for the factual information.
Here's a link to one of his fascinating videos:
https://youtu.be/o2hiIHSiyMA?si=hvZ_-XMFI6mf-T8I