WHEN DID JUPITER REPLACE SATURN?
Trying to determine when Saturn departed from the polar alignment and Jupiter replaced Saturn. The Saturn theorists have talked a lot about the Golden Age with the polar alignment and the times when the alignment wobbled, but very little about Saturn's departure and the time of Jupiter's reign in Saturn's place. Following are some Catastrophist excerpts that may help sort things out. Or maybe not. The excerpts come mostly from https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query.
See the Overview at the end.
____{MARDUK WAS JUPITER} In RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MYTH [Aeon 1988] Dave Talbott said Marduk was Jupiter.
We can thank the Babylonians for developing a sufficient astronomy to offer us a connecting link between planets and the gods of the pre-astronomical era. It is from their notations on the five planets, for example, that we learn of Saturn's identity as the old god Ninurta - the "sun" of the primordial epoch. In the same way, we find that Venus, the Morning Star, is the goddess Ishtar, that Mars is the war god Nergal, and that Jupiter is the god Marduk. For this reason, Babylonian astronomy might be called a bridge between pre-historic cosmic ritual, inspired by profoundly catastrophic events in the sky, and a later age of planetary peace, separated from the earlier era by a vast chasm.
____{MARDUK WAS SATURN} In The Poem of Erra [Aeon 1988] Ev Cochrane seemed to say Marduk was Saturn.
Babylonian astronomical texts generally identify Marduk with the planet ____Jupiter, although the name is also applied to the planet Mercury. Jastrow, however, regards the planetary identification as secondary, and would understand Marduk as originally a sun-god: "Marduk appears to have been, originally, a solar deity {like Saturn}. This identification with Jupiter is, therefore, artificial and entirely arbitrary." (79) Jastrow's hypothesis is supported by several considerations. ... the Poem of Erra refers to the dimming or eclipse of Marduk and Shamash {Saturn} ... understandable if Shamash and Marduk were one and the same. (80) ... Sulpae, for example, could be ascribed as an epithet of both gods. Indeed the name Shamash {Saturn} is applied to Marduk. (81) ... It is tempting to compare Heracles' {Mars'} assault of Helios {Saturn} with Erra's {Mars'} assault of Marduk in which he wrested the latter's celestial throne.
____{MARDUK & ZEDEK WERE JUPITER} In The Methodology of Patten's Martian Scenario [Aeon 1991] Dwardu Cardona said Marduk & Zedek were Jupiter.
Actually, one famous encyclopedia does state: "In Babylonia, from a very early period, Baal became a definite individual deity (Bel), and was identified with the planet Jupiter."(101) It must be noted, however, that this identification is forwarded on the basis of Bel Marduk, which translates as Lord Marduk, who was Jupiter. ... The Jupiter which the "rabbis" associated with Abraham is referred to as Zedek, which is the actual Hebrew name of the planet Jupiter.(102)
____{ZEDEK WAS SATURN} In FLARE STAR [2007] [p.118] Cardona seemed to say Zedek was Saturn.
According to Max Dimont: "In the Old Testament, God is referred to in three ways: as 'Elohim,' which is translated as 'God'; as 'JHVH,' wh ich is translated as 'Lord'; and as 'JHVH Elohim,' which is translated as 'Lord God'."1
Not quite, since there are other names of "God" given in the Old Testament. In Genesis, besides Elohim, the term El Elyon is also used.2 In the Book of Job "God" is referred to as El, Eloah, and Shaddai besides Elohim and Yahweh.3 Elsewhere, we even find "God" referred to as Sedeq (or Zedek) and Yahweh Sedeq.4
_[p.122] That Israel's old god, known as El, Eloah, and/or Elohim, also known as II or Ilus, was a manifestation of Saturn we have amply documented in our previous volume.2 That the worship of a sun, identified as Helios in later times, thus again equivalent to Saturn, was rampant from the time of the divided monarchy down into synagogue times, we have noted above. In between these two eras fits the age of Moses and Yahweh. Does this not, then, make one suspect that Yahweh, too, might have stood for Saturn?
____{JUPITER IN FRONT} In The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Aeon 1991] Dave Talbott said Jupiter was hidden, but led the Saturn train.
I have claimed that the planetary arrangement behind the polar configuration involved the former dominance of the planet Jupiter, all other participating bodies serving as Jovian "satellites" of sorts, in a planetary alignment having no counterpart in the solar system today. The shared rotational axis of these "satellites" extended out from Jupiter. The illustration below, while suggesting the planetary sequence, necessarily compresses the distances. Figure 2. The "Conjunction" of Saturn's Age. Based on a number of mythical threads (whirlpool of creation, "greyness" of the earliest age, absence of seasons, original profusion of cosmic "waters"), I have privately speculated that the entire planetary configuration moving through a gaseous envelope extending perhaps several million miles from Jupiter. (And if so, the dynamic interaction of the participating planets with this medium must be a part of any discussion of the physics of planetary alignment!) Jupiter was originally hidden behind Saturn, subsequently to be "born" as the rejuvenated or resurrected sun god following a great catastrophe in which the shared axis was disturbed and Saturn displaced from its polar position.(2) Moving up the axis from Earth, the original planetary line-up was: first Mars, then Venus, then Saturn, then Jupiter.(3)
____{JUPITER & SATURN WERE OFFSHOOTS OF A SUPERGIANT PLANET} In Magnetic Models of the Polar Configuration [Aeon 1995] Robert Driscoll wrote.
Magnetic forces were negligible. (1) The model now described in detail eliminates Jupiter. It includes the Jovian mass in that of the single gas supergiant of the configuration, called Saturn. (See Fig. 1.) Present Jupiter and Saturn were formed by fragmentation of the supergiant at the close of the Golden Age. Electrostatic charges on planetary scales are eliminated; their mutual repulsions are replaced by those of magnetic fields. This replacement was necessary because 1) no known physical mechanism including magnetic fields could have conserved electric charges on any two planetary bodies sufficient to neutralize a detectable fraction of their mutual gravitational attraction, (2) and 2) a mechanism existed which could generate global magnetic fields on any two planets strong enough to repel each planet from the other against their mutual gravitational attraction.
____{JUPITER'S REIGN & COSMIC EGG} In Vox Popvli [Aeon 1995] Dwardu Cardona replied to William Orchard.
The era of the cosmic egg, however, was definitely not the first of such systems, and to say that this era was equivalent to the time "when an undifferentiated Saturn dominated the sky" is entirely incorrect. If Mr. Orchard was to reread my papers on the subject, (1) he will discover that the cosmic egg neither formed, nor split in half, until Venus, the cosmic eye, had already appeared in the center of the Saturnian orb. That "all of mythology can be assigned to the egg, the eye, or the transition from Saturn to Jupiter" is definitely not something I have ever wished to give the impression of. The "transition from Saturn to Jupiter," on the other hand, has been touched upon by David Talbott. (2) Much more, of course, remains to be said, not only concerning the transition from Saturn to Jupiter, but also on the period of Jupiter's supremacy.
____{POLAR COLUMN} In Vox POPVLI [Aeon 1997] Dwardu Cardona replied to Richard Smith.
{T}he "Navel of the World" ... reference, however, has nothing to do with these places having once been located at Earth's geographical pole. The reference has to do with the primeval Saturnian ring which was visualized as the celestial "earth" or "land" of the gods, [7] plumb in the centre of which appeared the members of the planetary alignment that made up the Saturnian configuration {in the direction of today's North Star}. It was this original alignment of planets that gave rise to the "navel" or "centre" of the "earth" or of the "world." With the rise of civilization, major centres - cities, towns, and holy shrines - were erected in imitation of the celestial "earth," a practice that has been well documented by Mircea Eliade, [8] so that these places were also revered as the navel of the "earth." That some of these centres also "had a stone column" and that these columns were erected in commemoration of "the polar column" is consistent with the above.
____{JUPITER SOUTH}
"Jupiter was ... also known as the Star of the South [17] and it is just possible that the Jovian luminary was hidden, not behind Saturn [as per David Talbott], but below Earth. Thus Jupiter would have occupied a position in the south celestial pole akin to Saturn's in the north. Working independently of the mythological record, and in fact in ignorance of it, Chris Sherrerd came to the same conclusion." [18] The positioning of Jupiter at Earth's south celestial pole might have contributed to the configuration's temporary stability, and it would thus seem that Jupiter's positioning in the south, other than being hinted at by the mytho-historical record, could find justification in the mechanics required for the stabilization of the system. ... Jupiter may have "started out" in Earth's south celestial pole and later moved to the "north" behind Saturn, thus destabilizing the system which finally fell apart. ... Also, despite its possible stabilizing effect on the Saturnian system, the positioning of ____Jupiter at Earth's south celestial pole does raise its own problems.
____{JUPITER REPLACED SATURN} In Symbols of an Ancient Sky: Slide Presentation [Aeon 1997] David Talbott was paraphrased.
A bright sun now moved across the sky; the motionless sun at the pole was gone; and the Golden Age came to an end. Jupiter now became the largest planet in the sky. Talbott believes that this new order was the end of the myth-making epoch. What Talbott's model proposes is that the named planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, and Mars, were in collinear alignment with Earth until that alignment was disturbed. Earth was looking into a tunnel - a static linear interlock - of planets. Looking up into the northern sky, humanity would have been presented with a remarkable sight - an orb within an orb within an orb - a configuration that consisted of Mars seen in front of Venus which was positioned in front of the gas giant Saturn, all centered upon the celestial pole and looming close to Earth. According to Talbott, Jupiter was initially hidden behind Saturn. This configuration evolved in a highly dramatic way, as gases and other material stretched between the planets which interacted electrically with one another, producing periods of great instability and catastrophe.
____{JUPITER DEPOSED SATURN} In Changing Sea Levels [Aeon 1998] Gordon Williams
Saturn, as the "Sun of Night," [11] was the dominant body of the equatorial heavens above the elevated region of the "Orphic Egg." [12] After periodic visits by Jupiter, Saturn was finally deposed. This region now rests beneath our northern sky, it having shifted through 90-deg as Earth toppled. This sequence of events is possibly that told in the "Wars of the Titans." In the process, mass was lost from Earth's present northern hemisphere and our globe was recast in a pear-shaped form. With this change in the levels of the Earth's crust, a transfer of the oceans from about the southern continent towards the north would follow. Early sea levels would have been quite low and much less saline....
____{JUPITER AS THE YOUNGER SATURN} In BY JOVE [Thoth 1999] Dave Talbott wrote.
"Saturn" (the Universal Monarch) has both elder and younger aspects. I think it may have been Macrobius who said that the younger Saturn is Jupiter and the elder Jupiter is Saturn.
____{JUPITER ARRIVAL} In Vox Popvli [Aeon 2000] Emilio Spedicato replied to Richard Smith.
My feeling, however, is that the polar model implies a concentration of land mass - i.e. Pangaea - in the region facing the external planets which would constitute main source of tidal effects. Hence, I doubt the presence of man in "equatorial" regions at that particular time. The model I submitted takes the size of the planets as at present. Since the collapse of the polar system was most probably due to a massive, but external, catastrophic agent - I suspect the capture of Jupiter - it is likely that the masses (and sizes) of the respective planets went through a change. My suspicion is that Venus lost mass in a grazing impact with Jupiter (hence the myth of the birth of Venus from Jupiter). Venus would have thus come out of this grazing impact in a very hot state and comet-like. Saturn, too, would have lost a lot of its original mass in interactions with the same Jupiter. Velikovsky was also of the opinion that Saturn's initial mass had to have been much greater, perhaps as great as that of Jupiter. [7]
____{ANCIENT CONJUNCTION} In The Cosmic String of Pearls [Aeon 2001] Marinus van der Sluijs quoted Pang.
"Using computers to back-compute the planetary orbits, Pang and colleagues settled on a date in late February 1953 BC when Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn came within only five degrees of one another...."
____{STARS APPEARED WHEN JUPITER'S REIGN BEGAN} In Vox Popvli [Aeon 2001] Dwardu Cardona replied to Dick Gagel.
Dick Gagel {wrote.} {Author} Greg Rigby ... claims to have discerned the stars forming Ursa Major as ca. 5 cathedral towns in France, with the extreme "right hand" member located in Germany on the Donnesberg - i.e. Thunder Mountain. This would be very appropriate if the dislocation of Saturn from the Polar Configuration by thundering Jupiter caused those seven stars to become visible and take on a new mythical role for themselves. I was therefore wondering whether these factors could yield a viable {i.e. feasible} benchmark for determining the chronological order of events following the break-up of the Polar Configuration. The constellation Ursa Major interpreted as an adze. ... Dwardu Cardona {replied.} ... Gagel is correct in surmising that the seven stars of Ursa Major became visible in Earth's sky for the first time following the break-up of the Saturnian configuration. In fact, these seven stars were not the only ones to first come into view following that event. All of the stars which now pepper our night-time sky first became visible at that time. It was also then that the constellations received their names. As for a viable benchmark date concerning the event in question, prudence prompts me to keep silent at least until the entire chronology of the Saturnian events have been worked out.
____{JUPITER BEHIND SATURN} In Further Comments on the Saturnian Configuration Theory (Forum) [Aeon] Frederic Jueneman wrote.
I remember that, during an evening's chat in early July of 1991 at Dwardu Cardona's home, we discussed the Saturnian planetary shish-kabob arrangement. As I recall, the only stable configuration of this arrangement that I could envision would have to have been in free space, undisturbed by any nearby stellar gravitational fields. Once this shish-kabob encountered the Sun's vicinity, the polar configuration would have been disrupted and the planets scattered into various orbital positions. Further, if indeed Saturn had once been a brown dwarf star, its size would have been considerably reduced in volume, perhaps to the dimensions of a terrestrial planet or a smaller gas giant. This would have allowed Jupiter to be visible from behind the configuration. Also, an encounter with the Sun's influence may well have triggered a nova-like eruption on Saturn that would have left it in a much more voluminous state, as it now appears. Frankly, I don't subscribe to this arrangement, but it doesn't prevent me from speculating on its hypothetical scenario
____{JUPITER HELPED ABRAHAM} In Letters [SIS Workshop 1980s?] Esher O'Gheoghan wrote.
James Strickling {said} "Hebrew legend is very specific in regard to Jupiter's former proximity and brilliance, also providing a chronological context..." and quotes that Abraham's military victory "was possible only because the celestial powers espoused his side. The planet Jupiter made the night bright for him and an angel, Lailah by name, fought for him" (L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews. (Philadelphia 1909) vol. I, p. 240). Lailah is of course the Hebrew word for night, and it suggests to me that there are two traditions to this legend, one involving divine light and the other the power of darkness. ... So I would argue that the events of Genesis 14 and 19 are separate, and in fact Jupiter is only directly implicated in those happenings of Genesis 14. Ginzberg also provides us with another legend concerning Jupiter's activity in these times. He mentions (ibid vol. I, p. 175 and vol. V, p. 225) that Jupiter appeared in the east instead of in the west in Abraham's time - actually on the night of the battle with the kings. ... The Bagster Companion Bible (King James Authorised Version, 1611), in a marginal note, gives Abraham as "the righteous man" and this identification would seem to be correct. However, "The King James Filter" (see M. Sieff in Workshop no.1 1978, p. 3-5) is operating here, for the Hebrew word translated as "the righteous man" is actually "zedek". (Now if the righteous man was intended it ought have been "hazedek" but that was not the meaning intended). "Zedek", can mean "righteous" or it can mean "Jupiter" - that is the planet Jupiter. Thus Tractate Shabbat 156b, referred to by Ginzberg (vol. V, p. 225 and misprinted!), gives this insight on Isaiah 41:2 : - "Because Zedek (Jupiter) stands in the West? I will turn it back and place it in the East. And thus it is written, Who hath raised up Zedek from the east? He hath summoned it for his sake." Should the reader have any doubts he should consult the text of Genesis 14:18-20. After the victory over the four kings, Abraham is met by Melchizedek king of Salem, who blessed him and praised him. Note the curious name, Melchizedek, and coming just after Jupiter's involvement in a battle. This name is usually translated as "king of righteousness" but could equally well be "Jupiter the king".
____{AGREED: JUPITER HELPED ABRAHAM} In Jupiter -- God of Abraham (Part I) [Kronos 1981] Dwardu Cardona wrote.
Immanuel Velikovsky has attributed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to a close encounter of Earth with the planet Jupiter.(1) {Cardona went on to discuss Strickland's ideas and then suggested that Jupiter's moon Io was the source of the brimstone, i.e. sulfur, that rained on those cities.}
If it's true that Earth came close to Jupiter in the time of Abraham and that Jupiter caused Earth's axis to change direction, that might have been at the time of the 1953 BC conjunction of the planets mentioned above. Jupiter or Earth may have been on an elliptical orbit.
OVERVIEW OF 3 AGES
____{AGES OF DARKNESS, LIGHT, & BOTH} In The Paleo-Saturnian System [Aeon 2001] Dwardu Cardona said there were 3 ages age: one of darkness, one of light, and one of dark and light.
That traditions of the age of darkness are to be found not only in the eastern hemisphere but also in the western and northern hemispheres, I have already documented elsewhere by citing the beliefs held by the Indians of British Columbia and other North American Indians. [27] (There are, in fact, so many such traditions from the western world that, in the work cited, I did not dare present them all for fear of boring the reader to death.) Myths pertaining to Saturn from Mesoamerica are also known. And there, too, the age of darkness is spoken of. The Aztec Quetzalcoatl, the same as the Mayan Kukulkan, a deity identifiable as a personification of Saturn, [28] was said to have existed in an era of primordial night. [29] So, likewise, with the traditions of Central and South America. [30] On the other hand, it is true that some myths specify a perpetual day at the beginning of time rather than a perpetual night. At least, in forty years of research, I have come across two such traditions, only one of which comes from the Amazon basin. As paraphrased by Douglas Gifford, this Amazonian myth states that "at the beginning of all time, there was no such thing as night" - "it was always day." Night, however, eventually came and, with it, an entire change in the nature of all things. [31] The other myth, recorded by Marc de Civrieux, comes from the Makiritare who live much farther north in Venezuela. This one also refers to a time when there "was just light" and "no night." [32] So what should we make of these myths? One can argue that two myths opposed to many more others which relate a contrary state of affairs should not be given much credence. But that is not my method. Besides, do these two myths really contradict those which tell of an endless night? Consider: In the Saturnian events I have reconstructed, the age of darkness finally came to an end with the light shed by Saturn's flare-up. [33] Following that, Earth and its inhabitants were flooded by continuous light for generations. And it is to this period that the above myths actually refer. This is especially brought home in the myth of the Makiritare which specifies that the time when there was "just light" was also a time when evil did not exist, when there was no war, when no one worked, when no one had to look for food, when food was always there [34] - in other words, the Golden Age, an era during which the age of darkness had come to an end to be replaced with one of constant light. Night, in both the Amazonian and Makiritare myths, came later. [35] In both these myths, the coming of night is referred to in the context of a day-night cycle, and not in that of (the previous) perpetual night-like darkness. As I explain elsewhere, night, as we know it, did not descend upon the world until the break-up of the Saturnian configuration. [36]
SATURN TRAIN'S PATH INTO THE SOLAR SYSTEM
I drew this a couple years ago I guess. I had a different version that I drew maybe ten years ago.
The Saturn train of Saturn, Venus, Mars & Earth came from the right, possibly from the Kuyper belt or beyond it. Jupiter wasn’t visible until Saturn departed, so it was either in front of Saturn, or behind the Earth, or it was in an orbit near its present orbit. In the image below you can see about what size the Sun looked when the train was at the orbits of the planets listed. From Eris to Neptune, the Sun would have looked very small and would have shed very little light on Earth. When it approached Uranus’ orbit, it would have started to look bigger and would likely have started to give off as much light as Saturn did.
The age of darkness ended when Saturn went nova, which was likely when it encountered the Sun’s heliospheric current sheet, which goes to about the orbit of Saturn. When the train reached the orbit of Saturn, after the nova there may have been enough sunlight to make Saturn appear dim during the day, but bright at night, when the Sun was not visible. It would have taken generations for the train to go from one planetary orbit to another, such as from Uranus’ orbit to Saturn’s and then to Jupiter’s etc.
Cardona thought Saturn left the train at the asteroid belt. If so, Earth might have frozen over, unless Jupiter was in the lead the whole time, so that Jupiter’s warmth would have kept Earth from freezing after Saturn left. Also, the linear arrangement of the train suggests to me that, if Jupiter was on the train, it was probably in the lead, since a linear train coming from outside the Kuyper belt would likely have been more stable with the heaviest object in front. Talbott has suggested that Jupiter accompanied Earth and Venus to an orbit close to Venus before moving back out to its present orbit. If Jupiter encountered Earth at the time of Abraham, then it may have been on an elliptical orbit between Saturn’s and Earth’s present orbit.
https://calgary.rasc.ca/sun_and_transits.htm
My best guess is that the Great Flood and the Pangaea supercontinent breakup occurred at the time of the Saturn nova, near Saturn’s present orbit, 5,300 years ago. The Golden Age then lasted about 700 years at lower latitudes while the Ice Age built up at higher latitudes and altitudes. Then the Younger Dryas impacts occurred about 4,600 years ago at the asteroid belt and ended the Ice Age and Saturn departed, ending the Golden Age. Civilizations began in commemoration of the Saturn alignment & to beg for Saturn’s return. The Jupiter escort lasted a few decades or centuries. Some major impacts occurred about 4,300 years ago causing megatsunamis (as described by OzGeographics Youtube channel). Jupiter was on an elliptical orbit apparently, bringing it back close to Earth in Abraham’s time, maybe 1953 BC, causing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc.
There were large objects in some of the meteor streams that resulted from Saturn’s nova, or from the train’s encounter with a planet or something. The Earth continued to get pummeled occasionally by lesser impacts, as it crossed the meteor streams twice a year. The November meteor streams were the worst, which led to the celebration of Halloween in commemoration of those who died from impacts. Comets in the meteor streams looked like ghosts in the sky.
Our ancestors had a very rocky ride in the Saturn train and later the Jupiter train on many occasions and even after that.
Thank you for bringing together all of these quotations on the transitory period from the planetary system led by Saturn to that led by Jupiter, then Sol. It will take some time to read and digest them all.