EC: MARS/VENUS EVENTS
EC: MARS/VENUS EVENTS
Interview & Dead Sea Cataclysm
EV COCHRANE INTERVIEW & DEAD SEA CATACLYSM
(1) My "background" ... is that of a serious scholar interested in the Big Questions. While in college and grad school I was primarily focused on evolutionary biology and studied genetics at Iowa State University.
(2) In 1977, as an undergrad, a professor introduced me to the works of Velikovsky. I was initially intrigued by the spectacle of a maverick scholar taking on the establishment (guys like Carl Sagan). Almost immediately I read everything I could find on the man and his theories (Pensee, Kronos, SIS, all books pro and con).
(3) While at ISU in the early 80's, I studied Greek and Sumerian myth. One of my first major projects was to compose a lengthy essay on the catastrophic elements in Inanna's mythology. These early writings, in turn, inspired me to reach out to Dave Talbott in 1980 and that led to a collaboration that has lasted some 40 years now. Dave and I wrote a number of articles on the Comet Venus for Kronos in the mid-80's and we later published the journal Aeon, beginning in 1987. Although I have published articles and books on numerous different subjects--evolutionary theory, Martian meteorites, ancient chronology, archaeoastronomy, basketball (Dave and I were both huge Bill Walton fans), etc.--comparative myth remains my primary focus as it provides a unique interface between Earth history, cultural evolution, language, and human psychology.
(4) My grasp of ancient history is fairly solid, especially that of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.
(5) I don't subscribe to Donald Trump's motto that all publicity is good publicity. I like to be slightly more discerning with regards to where my material appears.
(6) Much of my work is devoted to offering a new approach about how best to reconstruct ancient Earth history, so an evidence-based scientific methodology is very important to me.
(7) The prospect that much of our findings will disappear with our deaths is certainly very much on my mind given the recent deaths of Dwardu Cardona, Wal Thornhill, and other leading lights in our movement. I am always interested in learning more about what we can do to vouchsafe our knowledge for future generations.
CARDONA CONFUSED ROLES. I have grave doubts about {Cardona's} whole reconstruction (he consistently confused the Mars/Venus events with supposed Saturn events).
JUPITER HAD NO ROLE
I do not agree with Dave that Jupiter replaced Saturn. Dave's reasoning was valid, but it relies on very late sources (Greek and Roman). You mentioned his article in Aeon: I regard that article as an all-time classic. Vintage Dave. I spent several years trying to track down his sources and/or reasoning. I could not find anything that supported his conclusions (that Jupiter was depicted in the Egyptian kh-glyph). If you are familiar with Dave's earliest writings in Network, you will remember that he early on argued that Horus was Jupiter and that he was the child-hero of ancient myth, employing many of the same arguments as in this Aeon article. But Horus was not Jupiter: He was Mars. Dave eventually realized this and offered some brilliant arguments in this regard (remember his classic Warrior Hero article). But for one reason or another, this new-found revelation never led him to revise his earlier beliefs about Jupiter. Without Horus as Jupiter, Dave's entire argument falls to the ground. Horus was the child-hero; Horus was the child at Venus's breast (hard to imagine about the massive Jupiter); Horus was the King of the Gods; Horus is the god consistently identified as a "youth" (Egyptian hwn and h'). And what is true of Horus is true of the Vedic Indra and sundry other analogous gods, all of whom Dave eventually agreed were Mars.
I have never seen the article "Male Gods," so I will not comment on that thesis.
GOLDEN AGE ENDED BEFORE PYRAMID TEXTS
{Moe} Mandelkehr's thesis can never be made to square with that of Dave and myself. As you state, Mo pointed to an event that supposedly happened circa 2300 BCE. I see little or no evidence for such an event. In any case, that is the very time the pyramids were being built (Unis's, for example, the one with the Pyramid Texts). There is simply no way to place the Golden Age or any of the major cataclysms that late as they are already mentioned in the Pyramid Texts written before that!!!!! Finally, since we have yet to determine any role for Jupiter in the polar configuration, I see no reason to speculate that it ever moved in the inner solar system.
BANDED SPHERE IMAGES ARE JUST INTRIGUING
I have yet to find any evidence that Jupiter was involved in the polar configuration of planets. And believe me, I am looking! Nor am I aware of any positive evidence presented by anyone else. Dave's suggestions with regards to the banded sphere remain fascinating and well worth further investigation, but they do not appear to support the radical proposal that he offered.
SATURN WASN'T APPARENTLY REPLACED. I am not aware of any evidence that Saturn "appeared to be replaced by another planet." Again, that is a speculation by Dave that has yet to find any support in the ancient sources or by any other researcher.
INNER PLANETS APPARENTLY DIDN'T MIGRATE FROM ELSEWHERE. Neither Dave nor I ever supported the idea that Earth and the other planets migrated into the solar system from somewhere else so it's not relevant to our hypothesis.
SATURN CONFIGURATION BREAKUP, NO INFO. Either Saturn had to be removed from near Earth or vice versa. Certainly it is easier to imagine Earthian life surviving the removal of Saturn than a trip across the solar system? As for what caused the breakup of the system and Saturn/Mars/Venus's departure, I do not speculate and leave that to the astronomers/physicists to sort out.
NO EVIDENCE INNER PLANETS CAME FROM OUTER SOLAR SYSTEM. Dave never accepted "Dwardu's idea." In fact, it wasn't Dwardu's idea at all, rather Wal's. Mind you, Wal's hypothesis is utterly novel and fascinating and definitely deserves further investigation. But I try and argue based on evidence and I see no evidence for Earth moving to its present orbit from the outer solar system.
MAJOR PREHISTORY EVENTS
Every major event that we have discussed occurred in prehistory. These traditions were well known and "old hat" already by the time of Unis's pyramid in 2450 BCE so they must have been prehistoric in nature. Of the events included I would number Creation itself, the Venus/Mars catastrophes, the tenure of the polar configuration, the Flood, the ladder to heaven and/or World Pillar, etc. In short, every major mythological theme will trace to the prehistoric period.
VENUS COMET DARK PERIOD BEFORE CREATION
World myth is unanimous that a period of Darkness prevailed before Creation. But this need mean no more than some serious catastrophe darkening the skies for a period of a month or so prior to order being restored. In that sense, there was no Dark Age at all--otherwise how would photosynthesis and a host of biological functions survive? There is a wealth of evidence that the comet-like phase of Venus belongs to this period of darkness and numerous myths credit it with darkening the world and bringing it to the brink of destruction.
VENUS/MARS MARRIAGE WAS CREATION
{Regarding:} Was there a huge Saturn flareup that ended the Age of Darkness and was described as Creation? Here opinions differ. Dave and Dwardu were definitely of that opinion. In my recent book The Case of the Turquoise Sun I offer a different view. Creation itself was marked by the sacred marriage between Mars and Venus. That was the event that is credited with bringing "light" to the world and ushering in a period of luxurious turquoise radiance. So far as I'm aware, there is no ancient account that links either Saturn or a flareup of Saturn to Creation and/or a period of Darkness.
POLAR COLUMN DID NOT RETRACT BEFORE CREATION. {Regarding:} Did the polar column retract just before the flareup and lead to belief in Saturn's self-castration and rites of circumcision etc? No. Long story.
VENUS CROWNED MARS KING
As mentioned earlier, the period of the Venus comet in its destructive phase preceded Creation. That said, during the unfolding events of Creation it returned to Horus (Mars) and encircled it as the uraeus-crown or ouroboros-like object. It was Venus's encircling of Horus/Mars that signaled the latter's "crowning" and universal kingship.
SATURN'S RINGS, NO INFO. {Regarding:} Did Saturn's rings form at that time? I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
SATURN'S CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK, NO INFO.
{Regarding:} Did Saturn have a separate circumstellar disk that resembled an ocean? I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
GOLDEN AGE DURATION, NO INFO.
{Regarding:} Can you estimate the minimum and maximum duration of the Golden Age? No.
CELESTIAL FLOOD. Ancient myth seems to remember one great flood associated with the unfolding of Creation. By Flood, Dave and I have in mind entirely celestial events. We do not subscribe to a Noah-like flood scenario destroying the Earth ala Velikovsky and so many other writers.
ICE AGE, SEE CARDONA. I have never investigated or discussed the Ice Ages. I see no reason to believe any have occurred since the events discussed by Dave and myself. See Dwardu's work if you're interested. He has collected some very compelling evidence for earlier events.
CELESTIAL CONFLAGRATION. The Conflagration ... was wholly celestial in nature and has nothing to do with a global Earth event ala Donnelly and other theorists.
CONFLAGRATION JUST BEFORE CREATION. The Conflagration, such as it was, evidently traces to the unfolding of Creation--i.e., it was prehistoric in nature. See my chapter on Demophon in Turquoise Sun. {See https://www.maverickscience.com/ }
CHINESE DRAGON {DRAGON = VENUS}
I certainly disagree with Dwardu’s proposal with respect to the encircling dragon. First, where is the evidence for this hypothesis? Second, the encircling dragon, as Talbott and I have shown in numerous publications, is best understood as the Venus-comet (think of the Egyptian Uraeus serpent, encircling Horus). Third, there is some reason to identify the pearl encircled by the dragon with the planet Mars, although here it must be said that the evidence is far from voluminous and/or compelling on this issue.
POLAR COLUMN RETRACTION. On page 279 of Flare Star he said this {not shown}. I would argue that Dwardu’s argument {about retraction of the polar column causing Saturn's flareup} is far from well sourced or compelling. Absent a ton more documentation in the Egyptian texts themselves, the entire hypothesis is sheer speculation and hardly worthy of being taken on board by those interested in cosmogonic myth.
THE TURQUOISE SUN: LOTUS OF CREATION
{THUNDERBOLTS} I suspect that this was the greatest catastrophe the world ever experienced within human memory. Not only were the planets very close to Earth, but the lightning bolts between the respective planets were prodigious in scale and power. Remember what Tony Peratt said about the power and radiation effects of these thunderbolts (many thousands of times the power of the hydrogen bomb). The thunderbolts were powerful enough to reshape the northern hemisphere of Mars, after all, effectively hoovering off many miles of surface structure. Understand, I would not want to be dogmatic about any of this: Much remains to be established, not the least of which is how the planets could have participated in a polar configuration in the first place. But we can be very confident that they did, well within the memory of homo sapiens (likely between 6000-4000 BCE). Rather than growing smaller, the planets actually appeared to grow larger because of the plasma effects affecting them. Venus, for example, was likely originally seen as a simple orb or round globe while it was located in the center of the so-called Ra-sign. When it flared up and assumed the form of a 8-rayed star or 8-petaled flower, it literally spanned heaven (the Sumerian planet-goddess Inanna is actually said to have spanned heaven in the ancient texts). Mars, as Dave and I have documented at great length, alternately appeared as a dwarf or infant at the breast of Venus and as a towering planet while moving closer to the Earth (Mars is known as the "swelling" planet around the globe).
MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE
{BEFORE CREATION} I believe that the Mars-eclipse traditions belong to the pre-Creation period that was marked by darkness (this is a universal theme — that the pre-Creation world was marked by darkness). If I understand things correctly, this is where the Venus-comet phase belongs as well (Venus is everywhere credited with darkening the skies — witness the Egyptian Eye of Horus traditions). The raging Eye of Horus events belong to the pre-Creation period and are precisely mirrored in the Sumerian traditions associated with the Inanna-dragon). See The Many Faces of Venus or Fossil Gods. My forthcoming book on Egyptian myth will document this thesis in great detail. With regards to the “flow”: much of this imagery will trace to the period of the four-fold cross in the sky, discussed in detail by Dave in numerous works and in my Turquoise Sun. The four “rays” were everywhere identified as four rivers, canals, four winds, etc., all of which flowed across the sky as plasma forms.
THE PRIMEVAL HILL
{NOT THE POLAR COLUMN} (Presearch.com Sisyphus)
The Primeval Hill was not the polar column. Rather it preceded it in time. I try and summarize this material in Turquoise Sun but here, too, this are very archaic traditions and difficult to sort out. There is a reason why Egyptologists and scholars of myth have utterly failed to explain these universal myths. The separation of heaven and earth, in large part, was brought about by the appearance of the four streamers which, as the four sky pillars, pillared apart heaven and earth. This was the ordering of the cosmos at the center of Creation traditions around the globe.
THE CASE OF THE MISSING SUN
{PLANETS' COLORS}
{Regarding Planet Colors:} Dave’s discussion of this imagery is pure genius and is unrivaled in the history of science or the study of symbolism. Dave and I worked out this Venus history between 1981 and 2000 or so. Wal Thornhill played a key role in explaining what exactly was going on between the respective planets (material stretched out between Mars and Venus and the latter and Saturn, including the symmetry of the respective streamers). Generally speaking, Mars was ruddy red and Venus green but during the various catastrophic phases other colors were presented. Kali/Venus was black while destroying the world, for example, while Mars took on a turquoise green color when the Venusian streamers enveloped it.
THE DRILLING OF FIRE AND THE ORIGIN OF THE SUN
{MARS WAS KING}
I would argue that Quetzalcoatl was the planet Mars. I regard him as the double of the Egyptian Horus. Both were identified with the Morning Star and conceptualized as the first king. Dave eventually agreed that Quetzalcoatl was Mars but he never really managed to sort out the relationship of this figure to Saturn (as the Universal Sovereign, that is). Saturn’s role in ancient myth and religion is a very difficult question and much remains to be sorted out. But Mars was the archetypal king crowned by Venus — and the consort of the Queen of Heaven — not Saturn.
{HEAVEN ON EARTH.}
As I try to explain in Turquoise Sun, Creation is always centered on a Primeval Mound, hill, or mountain. As I understand this celestial structure, it consists of Venus (= primeval earth) with Mars in front of it, hence the archaic tradition that Horus/Mars settled upon a mound or the Thundergod's original appearance in the center of the earth. As for how to visualize this structure, I relate it to what I have called the half-star (see the image below, from Mesoamerica). It is this particular celestial structure that the ancients were attempting to model with their pyramids and ziggurats. It will be noted that this half-star is exactly the 8-rayed Venus bisected, as it were, a decisive key to interpreting the imagery (I have discussed this imagery at great length in my Mons Veneris, located on my website, hitherto unpublished). As to how this apparition is to be explained from an astronomical standpoint, much remains unclear. Recently Rick Smith has been trying to model this image by means of the polar configuration and he has succeeded in producing this very image. As I understand it, there are various different ways to produce this image, depending on the tilt of the Earth's axis and the relative positioning of Mars, Venus, and Saturn. I would recommend you reach out to Rick if you want more detail.
{WORLD TREE & LADDER.}
To reiterate: The events in question trace to the prehistoric period, well before the birth of human civilization. The only "records" we have of such events are ancient rock art and human testimony--that is, of course, until we can securely date the relevant high-energy discharge events on Earth and Mars (well into the future, I trust). Thus it would be foolhardy to be dogmatic about any of our findings, but of some things we can be certain, such as the fact that the World Pillar was indeed a tangible structure in the sky, formerly visible but no longer visible today. That said, I will attempt to answer your specific questions. The full-fledged World Tree, as I attempt to argue in Turquoise Sun, was the so-called "solar cross" in the sky and, as such, is not strictly identifiable with the ladder to heaven, which descended below the polar configuration. The chain of arrows, rope of heaven, and ladder to heaven belong together and seemingly represent related but different phases in the evolution of the polar column. In Fossil Gods, as well as in several of my articles on the ladder to heaven, I show a petroglyph from South America where all three forms are preserved side by side, as if the ancient skywatchers knew the evolving forms were one and the same (i.e., the rope evolved into a helix-like structure that presented the appearance of a runged-ladder). See here Tony Peratt's discussion of the evolving toruses associated with high energy discharge events. Obviously, we need Tony or someone else with his knowledge of plasma behavior to tell us how or why these different forms evolved over time. But it is clear that the column changed shape over time and it is possible to reconstruct this history in great detail given enough data and time. Personally, I distinguish between the Primeval Mound and the polar column because the former describes Heaven and Earth in conjunction, as explained in a previous email, and belongs to any earlier period in Creation. The formation of the polar column is a later development although still intimately connected to the unfolding of Creation (the prototypical "sun" climbs a ladder or lotus stem to ascend to heaven, for example). The three planets you mention definitely did not depart right after Creation but stayed aligned in the polar configuration for some time, eventually morphing into a myriad of other clearly reconstructable forms (the initial appearance of the crescent; the White Crown phase, etc.). Hope this helps clarify matters.
EV'S TIMELINE & THE DEAD SEA CATACLYSM
My timeline: L1. FLOOD(3,200BC) - L2. ICE AGE(till 2,600BC) - L3. YD(2,600BC) - L4. EARLY CIVILIZATION(till 2,100BC) - L5. DEAD SEA CATACLYSM(2,200BC)
Ev Cochrane's timeline: E1. ICE AGE - E2. GOLDEN AGE - E3. CHAOS/DARKNESS/ DOOMSDAY - E4. MARS & VENUS RECESSION - E5. END OF SATURN CONFIGURATION(by 2,400BC) - E6. CIVILIZATION
DATING. So I think Ev only has one date, c. 2,400 BC (E5), in his timeline. E4 & E3 lasted some years or decades each. E2 (the Golden Age) lasted some decades or centuries.
E1: Ev assumes that the Saturn Configuration was always in the inner solar system, so when the system broke up Earth didn't have to travel through space from Saturn's orbit to Earth's orbit without a heat source, such as Saturn. Instead, he assumes that Saturn moved from the inner to the outer solar system, while Earth stayed put. He prefers not to speculate much on the celestial mechanics of the Saturn Configuration.
He said to see Cardona's writings regarding the Ice Age. Cardona seemed to accept that the Ice Ages ended during the YD (Younger Dryas), which is conventionally put at between 11 & 12 millennia ago, but which I date to after the Great Flood, from c. 3,200 to 2,600BC.
E2: He says the Golden Age occurred before the Creation event. I think Creation was also called Doomsday.
E3: He says the Flood & Conflagration occurred only in the sky during E3 (a period of celestial chaos).
E4: He says the Saturn Configuration remained for a period of time during E4 (post-chaos).
E5: He says E5 occurred before the first pyramid texts, conventionally dated to 2,400BC or so.
My guess is that E3 occurred at L3, i.e. at the Younger Dryas event c. 2,600BC.
DEAD SEA CATACLYSM DATING. Several Creation.com articles conclude that Abraham was born in 2,166BC, so the Dead Sea Cataclysm would then have occurred c. 2,100BC. (See e.g. Two date range options for Noah's Flood https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31_1/J31_1_120-127.pdf). That event apparently deposited a lot of sulfur in an area close to the Dead Sea, so I asked Perplexity.AI which solar system bodies have sulfur.
SULFUR IN SOLAR SYSTEM. Several bodies in our solar system contain sulfur in various forms. Here's an overview of some key locations where sulfur has been detected:
Venus: The atmosphere of Venus contains sulfuric acid clouds and sulfur dioxide.
Earth: Sulfur is present in Earth's crust, atmosphere, and various life forms.
Mars: Sulfur compounds have been detected in Martian rocks and soil.
Jupiter: The atmosphere contains sulfur compounds, and its moon Io is particularly sulfur-rich.
Io (Jupiter's moon): Io's surface is covered with sulfur and sulfur dioxide from its active volcanoes.
Europa (Jupiter's moon): Sulfur compounds are present on its icy surface, likely due to irradiation from Jupiter's magnetosphere.
Ganymede and Callisto (Jupiter's moons): These moons also receive sulfur ion irradiation, though at lower levels than Europa.
Saturn's system: While Saturn's magnetosphere has a low density of sulfur ions, some of its moons like Enceladus show evidence of organic sulfur compounds.
Asteroids: Some asteroids, like Ryugu, contain sulfur compounds. Researchers have found diverse sulfur-bearing organic molecules in samples from Ryugu's surface1.
Comets: Sulfur compounds have been detected in various comets.
The presence of sulfur in these bodies is significant for understanding their composition, potential for supporting life, and the chemical processes occurring in different parts of the solar system. Sulfur plays a role in space weathering, the formation of organic compounds, and potentially in prebiotic chemistry.
NO JUPITER AGE? I wanted an idea whether Jupiter is needed to supply the sulfur. Apparently, it's not needed. So the Dead Sea sulfur could have come from Venus, or a comet, or an asteroid. And Venus could have gotten it from Saturn. I think Ev says Jupiter doesn't seem to have been ever seen up close, although he conceded that Dave Talbott's finding of ancient images of a banded sphere may have been images of Jupiter up close. So Ev doesn't have the Jupiter Configuration in his timeline. He apparently never found any gods to have portrayed Jupiter, but ancient gods were only identified as Mars, Venus, or Saturn. Even Saturn is seldom referenced in Ev's writings. So I want to ask him which gods were definitely Saturn. Any god identified with a crescent, such as Kronos, were likely Saturn, I think.
DEAD SEA SULFUR SOURCE? Since Ev has the Saturn Configuration gone by 2,400BC, the Dead Sea sulfur could only have come from Venus if Venus was on an elliptical orbit after the Saturn Configuration broke up. I should ask Ev if he's found any evidence that Venus returned in later times. Mars has sulfur too, but I don't see an easy way for concentrated sulfur to have escaped from Mars and hit the Dead Sea area. So, if Venus did not return, that leaves a comet or asteroid as the most likely source of the Dead Sea sulfur.